Another update on the Fair incident

OK, I got an answer on carry on the fairgrounds (Updated here). Here’s the email chain that followed that update.

I will be happy to provide you with a copy as soon as I am able. Please provide a mailing address. I am disappointed that you will not be attending any future fairs. The goal of the fair is to provide a fun and safe environment for all. I would ask that you take a moment to consider that we have to run the fair as a business and therefore, must take into consideration the comfort and safety of our patrons or they will be less likely to attend. We do not wish for our fair to be a forum for second amendment rights, but rather a palce for locals to come for some family fun. I can assure you that the gates will be more clearly posted in the future. We make evry effort to be reasonable and accomodating. If you have any further questions, feel free to e-mail me. Here is another quote for you…from All in the Family (1968)
Gloria: Do you know that sixty percent of all deaths in America are caused by
guns?
Archie Bunker: Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was pushed out of windows?
Regards,
Mike

Well, after I got that, I replied with this:

My mailing address is:
blah blah blah

The quote from All in the Family is cute, but did you (or they) consider the criminal and not the tool? Archie’s answer is very apt. A murderer is going to find a way to do what he’s going to do whether it’s with a gun or a multi-story shove out a window.
As for myself and my family attending the fair, that will not happen until your policy changes. My and my family’s safety is more important to me than someone else’s fear of the unknown.
I will not make further comments about my right to self defense, I would just like to ask you one further question: Do you believe in CPR?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLrN9UjGTwk&feature=share

The I got this:

You and Archie are right on point…the criminal will do what he wants with or without the gun. My point is to make the folks at the fair feel safe.
You probably aren’t aware, as most people are not, that this past fair a teen won or bought a soft pellet rifle that resembled an AR-15. As he was loading pellets into it in the parking lot, several families saw him. Not knowing it was a toy, they pressed the panic button and called 911. That set off a chain of events, that while unfounded, caused a reaction by law enforcement and panic among patrons in the parking lot. Thankfully, it was quickly resolved by our “thugs” and the State Police etc. were called off. My point is that most threats are perceived and perception is reality. That incident had the potential to cause chaos. Thankfully, it did not. I hope that someday, you are able to look at this from a slightly different perspective.
In regards to what you may think of me and my personal views, don’t make any assumptions. The reality is, I am obligated to the fair and fairgoers and must put my personal beliefs aside in order to have a successful fair. And yes, I am willing to do that to keep the fair going for the next generation to enjoy. Thanks.
Mike

So I replied with this:

If I saw someone loading what appeared to be an ar15 in the parking lot I would alert the authorities as well. That is a different subject entirely.
I prefer to actually be safe rather than *feel* safe. There is a significant difference there.
As to the thugs comment. I have had past experiences with those two specific individuals that confronted me, and they are thugs with badges, they are most definitely not peace officers. I have also had other confrontations, started by people with badges, because they want to make up the rules as they go, and that is unacceptable. The rules are (or should be) clearly defined for a reason. My open carrying is not illegal (with the standard exceptions such as when a property owner doesn’t allow it), but because the thugs with badges want to be the only ones with guns, they threaten me (and others) with arrest and sometimes worse.
If you want people to feel safe, allow them to actually be safe, don’t force them to rely on someone with a badge that may be nearby, that will respond too slow to be of any real assistance and statistically does more collateral damage than a private citizen with a gun (citizens are held accountable, “officials” almost never are).
Feeling safe falls in the same category as giving every player a trophy, even when when they suck. It does nothing of substance for anyone.
The reason I make assumptions about your philosophy is because if you are willing set aside your values for one thing, do you actually hold true to anything? If you truly believed in the right to self defense, you would go in front of the board (or whatever) and vote your conscience, not assume that all people are children.
I have been open carrying for a few years now, and I can honestly tell you that the only people that have ever given me a problem about it are the ones with the badges. Most people don’t even notice, and of the few that do, they typically ask if it’s legal because they didn’t know. I have not once had someone call the police to report a man with a gun. Not once.
Treat people like responsible adults and you might be surprised by the result.

Did anyone at the fair report a man with a gun? (other than the kid loading his airsoft rifle). Did you get any complaints about me? Why do you automatically assume people are going to act like children?

And he answered with this:

You make very good points. Maybe a coffee some day. I will mail you new rules once adopted. I understand your point of view. I am simply looking out for the best interest of the fair. I hate to see you angry with us. If you have any more questions or problems, please email me.

Regards,
Mike

And I had to answer that one too:
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In all honesty, I am not angry that your policy is to not allow firearms. There is no point in getting angry about that. I simply will not give the fair my business. You have your policy, I have mine.
What did bother me was:
a) the orange shirts attitude
b) the fact that no one I spoke to seemed to know what the actual policy was (including “security”)
c) the policy is not clearly posted anywhere
d) the fact that a month after I sent the initial email I still hadn’t received a response
e) the first response that I did finally get, was the one from George. Spelling and grammar errors aside, that’s a hell of an attitude to give someone for asking for an official policy with background history so you know why the request was made in the first place

Again, I’m not mad about the policy. But, I do feel it is my duty to make sure that the public is aware that the fairgrounds are a victim disarmament zone.

Call it what you like, but by making it a gun-free zone you are turning everyone that enters into a victim. I do not want to see a murderer go on a killing spree there ever, I’m related to a lot of people that go to the fair, but if it does happen a lot of innocent people will die because you have knowingly turned them all into victims.

This may sound like a harsh accusation, but it is the truth. By creating a gun-free zone you are creating tens of thousands of law abiding victims or turning people into criminals for not trusting your hired help with their own lives. And to make matters worse, if I, as a license holder, knowingly violate your no guns policy it’s a felony (making me a prohibited person) whereas if someone without a license carries a gun there it’s a misdemeanor. Who is more likely to ignore your signs? The person with the training and knowledge to use the weapon responsibly or the person who does it cause he thinks it’s cool?

No, I’m not angry about the policy, I’m just disappointed. Oh, by the way, I have openly carried at the Luzerne County Fair without incident, and I would expect more paranoid city folk there than at Wyoming County.

And that supposedly ended the chain of emails… but something was bothering me, so I did some research and sent him this:

Hello again, this is not to beat the firearms on fair property issue any further. That quote you sent me from All in the Family just didn’t feel right, that whole “60% of all deaths in America caused by guns thing”. Since it didn’t sound right to me, I decided to do some research. I didn’t find any real numbers for 1968 in my brief search, but judging by what I did find, I don’t believe that 60% thing. Here’s what I did find:

From the CDC for 2007 – firearms don’t make the top 5 list, but the top 5 list makes up over 64% of all deaths.

From another source that claims to have compiled his statistics from data reported by the
National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 15, September 16, 2002 – Firearms are the number 10 in the top 10 with 1.2% of all deaths (note that this 1.2% includes homicide, self-defense and police shootings)

I tried searching the CDC for more current numbers, but I don’t have that kind of time right now. I did however note a blurb in one of the CDC articles that in 1968, 55% of all injury related deaths were caused by motor-vehicles and firearms. That’s not quite the 60% of all deaths statistic that she quoted.

Also, here’s a couple more statistics for you:

From the CDC, Assault or Homicide (page last updated September 6th, 2011), All homicides are ranked 15th in the cause of death category, which is 6.1 deaths per 100,000 population. Of that 6.1 per 100k, firearms homicides were 4.2 per 100,000.

So, using these numbers, yes, guns are used in crime a lot. However, the amount of firearms related deaths is really a very small percentage of total deaths in America. But, while we’re looking at these numbers, let’s take a look at some other numbers. How about the numbers for areas with very restrictive gun laws (that means there are no guns in law abiding citizens hands, right?)

New York City: from 2003-2011, there were 4,161 homicides. An average of 494 per year. Of those, Firearms are 69%. Granted, I didn’t see what these numbers equal per 100,000, but I know New York is higher than average in homicide rates.

Washington, DC: Of the 132 reported homicides in the District in 2010, firearms were used in 99 of them, or approximately 75 percent. Nationally, firearms were used in 67.5 percent of homicides in 2010, the FBI reported.

I don’t have time to continue this topic right now, but I would recommend checking the facts before you try to make an argument using statistics.
Mark

I have not received a response to that one yet, and I really don’t expect to. But no matter. Once I get the official policy I will be buying an ad in the local paper (I’m open to suggestions for wording the ad). I also plan on buying an ad every week for the month leading up to the fair, but we’ll see how finances work out then. Worst case, I’ll make a sign and stand out next to the road during the fair. Something along the lines of “Warning, you are entering a no self-defense zone”. I’ve got some time to think about what my sign should read (I’m open to suggestions there too).
I’ll keep everyone posted on this.

Update on the open carry semi-incident from the beginning of the month

Well, it’s been almost a month since I started my blog and posted Another Open Carry semi-incident, so I decided to write to the fair committee again. This time I included everyone that is listed as an “Officer”, “Director” or “Executive Director”, and I also CC’d it to the local paper. I will retract the email addresses and last names of everyone for now, because I don’t want to escalate to that level just yet. I wasn’t necessarily going to even post an update until I got some progress, but the only response I have received so far pissed me off. Here is the text of the first email I sent this morning:

From: patriot@*****.com
To:
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:37:12 AM
Subject: Fair Ground Rules

All,
I originally sent the email below to fair@***** while the fair was still going on. I have not received an answer to my question, so I am now sending this to all of you listed as “Officers”, “Directors” or “Executive Directors” as I would like this question formally answered. I have also CC’d the New Age Examiner as I feel the public needs to know what the official policy is as well, in order to prevent future problems.
Please read the email below and respond to me as soon as possible.
Thank you,
Mark Roote
***-***-****

—————————- Original Message —————————-
Subject: Fair Ground Rules
From: patriot@*****.com
Date: Sat, September 3, 2011 2:45 pm
To: fair@*****
————————————————————————–

Corey,
I am writing to you because according to the fairs website you are the president of the fair committee, and I have not received a satisfactory answer to my inquiry at any of the numbers I have called.
I would like the “Fair’s” policy on firearms on the fairgrounds.
I am requesting that this policy be provided to me in writing with a majority of the voting members signatures in assent (either for or against weapons on fair property).
I am asking for this because Open Carry is legal in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and I Open Carry everywhere I go [with the exclusion of work (because it’s prohibited by the owner) and when I am on the ambulance (because that is currently the law, although I am working on that one)].
Having said that, I have been open carrying for a couple of years now, including at the fair in previous years, and have never been approached and told it was not permitted until last night. Last night I was at the fair with my wife and kids and was looking for the “kid-safe” place (the one that does the fingerprints and pictures, etc) and couldn’t find it.
We happened to be near where several “officers” were hanging out (by the Meshoppen Fire Company building), so I asked them where it was. They saw the weapon on my hip and asked me if I “was working”. It was pretty obvious I was not as I was in no semblance of a uniform (jeans and a t-shirt that said “Don’t Tread On Me”) and pushing a baby in a stroller.
They said nothing else about the firearm at that time (and they also had no idea where the booth that I was looking for was… if the “officers” know where anything is, shouldn’t they know where the child safety booth is?) We walked away to continue our search and found the booth (about 30 yards from where they were sitting, in line-of-sight). Then they came over and asked to speak with me “over here” (I was already out of the main pathway). They told me that they just radioed up and were told weapons were not permitted (they also spoke over me every time I tried to ask a question). They told me that I should consider concealed carry (does that mean that concealed carry is allowed on fairgrounds but open carry isn’t?)
They said that my gun “made people nervous”. When I told them that I had carried on the fairgrounds before and no one had never said anything to me, they said “you shouldn’t have gotten away with it”. These comments from them bring up several questions in my mind:
1) If my gun makes people nervous, has anyone ever filed a complaint about it? I had never been approached before, and I’m pretty sure that if someone went to one of the “officers” about a “man with a gun”, and it is not permitted, they would have been all over me, especially since I have never hidden the fact that I was carrying one.
2) Why did they have to radio up to the office to see if it was allowed? If it is the fairs policy that firearms are not permitted, shouldn’t the people working “security” be informed of this policy? Shouldn’t this policy be posted at the gates and shouldn’t everyone working at the gates be aware of this policy so they could let people know before they entered? (I know damn well the people at the gates saw it when I entered)
3) Why did he suggest I carry concealed? If only “officers” are allowed to have firearms on the fairgrounds, then that wouldn’t be “allowed” either, it would just be invisible… so the “officer” suggested I break the law so I wouldn’t scare people? Does that make sense?

A little more info. Before we went to their station, we had been walking around the fair for several hours already, and I very clearly remember walking past the same 2 “officers” that confronted me several times (along with several others) prior to them confronting me about the weapon. Obviously they didn’t notice it. If they didn’t notice me open carrying, they are obviously not paying attention to detail and definitely would not notice if I was carrying concealed.
Secondly, as we were on our way out of the fair, a fist fight broke out after a yelling match not far from us. The fight broke out not 2 minutes after one of the “orange shirts” walked by the kids (they looked 18-21ish) that were already in confrontational poses (yes, I know what that looks like as I probably have more training than most of the “officers” in Wyoming County) and with raised voices. No “orange shirts” arrived at the fight before a girl broke them up (a couple minutes into it, it appeared to be a girlfriend). How am I more of a threat than these kids? I know they were loud enough for the one that had just walked by to have heard them (I could still see him on the far side of the fight from me, walking away), why didn’t he come back?

I tried calling the office today, and the man that I spoke to gave me 3 different answers to the same question. His first answer was “I don’t think it’s permitted”, his second answer was “it’s not permitted” and his third answer was “to the best of my knowledge it’s not permitted”. You can see how that is unsatisfactory to me when we are talking about the fair refusing my right to self defense. If you can’t give me a solid yes or no to something this important, then you obviously don’t know and I therefore will not believe whatever answer you give me next.

Again, I would like the “Fair’s” policy on firearms on the fairgrounds, in writing, with a majority of the voting members signatures to clear this up
for me. Anything less than a majority of signatures is simply personal preference at this point because I have not gotten consistent answers from anyone I’ve questioned.

I would appreciate a response as soon as possible because neither I nor my wife and children will be returning to the fair until I have my answer.
And, to be honest, if the fair’s policy is that I must be unarmed, then my family will not be returning to the fair again, this year or in the future, until this policy is changed.
Also, since the “Fair” has not made this policy publicly available, I can promise that I will, be it in my favor or against it.

I can be reached at this email address or at my cell (***)-***-****. Since there will be no more US postal service before the fair ends, call me and I can come pick up the document (at the gate if necessary). If you can’t or won’t answer before the fair ends, contact me for my mailing address.

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And this is the sole response I have gotten so far… see what you think after reading it:

Approx 50000 people attend the fair, one person open carried and sent a long letter for explaination about this. ???

Im sure it will be delt with, thank you.

While that response was sent only to me, unless he sent it to everyone else BCC, I thought enough of it to reply to everyone from my original distribution:

So, George, either you weren’t paying attention when you hit send, or you are indifferent. I am the one who was open carrying and was told by the “officers” at the fair that it wasn’t permitted (after they had to check with the front office and probably talked to the same person that I did that didn’t actually have a clue what the official policy is). I am the one demanding an answer. Your answer of “Im sure it will be delt with, thank you.” is a rather piss poor way to handle public relations. I may be only one person, but I am a citizen. I am responsible for my own safety, and as such I am prepared to defend myself wherever I am. Since I am also a disabled veteran and unable to physically defend myself any longer, I carry a firearm.
I am the one that was told to break the law by your hired “security”. He told me point blank to consider carrying concealed. That has only two explanations: 1) firearms are permitted, but they don’t want to see them or 2) firearms are not permitted, but if you carry concealed we won’t see it so we won’t say anything to you (unless we recognize you and decide to harass you because we know you’re armed).
I wrote the big long explanation so that you would all know the background. I wrote my demand for your policy because I have no desire to break the law, and if I (and the public) know that your policy is to not allow firearms, I won’t carry there (if I show up). I do not believe those orange shirted thugs because I have dealt with them before (yes, those two specifically) and I know for a fact, from personal experience, that they lie when it suits their needs.
So, I say again, your answer of “Im sure it will be delt with, thank you.” is unacceptable.
On the other hand, I am trying to “deal with it” by getting an answer based on fact and supported by documentation, not someone’s opinion because they like to be the “only ones” with a gun.
Mark Roote

I am currently extremely pissed off at George. I do not know him currently, but I will know who he is soon (gotta love a small town for that).
I’ll keep you all posted, but I had to vent.

UPDATE
After I sent the last email, I got this response:

The fair has always had a policy regarding guns on fair property just as every other venue in the country does. The fair is a family event that attracts tens of thousands of people, particularly children. We do not wish to expose them to handguns and firearms. As a pro gun person myself, I understand your frustration, however, the fairgrounds is private property and we reserve the right to set the groundrules. In fact, as a result of your letter, the fair is in the process rewriting and revising the rules regarding prohibited items on fair property to make it even more restrictive. The new rules will be posted at each gate as you have suggested. When the new / revised rules are adopted, I will be happy tp provide you with a copy. Ultimately, the important thing to remember is that the fairgrounds is clearly defined private property. Additionally, nobody suggested you break the law. The fair had previously allowed for concealed carry provided it was in accordance with state and federal statutes. We do not have the authority to permit concealed carry without the proper permit(s). The whole idea is to not upset and scare fairgoers by having folks walking around with guns on their belts. You, being a veteran, should understand public sentiment and paranoia that surrounds the open carry of firearms, particularly post 9-11 and Columbine etc. The comfort and safety of our guests must be our number one priority. I would suggest that you apply for a concealed carry permit with the Sheriff in an effort to avoid any future hard feelings or misunderstandings. Thank you for taking the time to write.

best regards,
mike

He sent that to me and two other people. Why can’t people reply all? If you have something to say on this subject, everyone needs to hear it. Anyway, after that I sent the following to everyone on my initial distribution today:

Mike,
If I had received this answer in the first place, I would not have bothered to send out an email to everyone. But since no one was able to give an an answer, except for the derogatory answer from George, well, I got pissed off.
I know that the fairgrounds are private property and I know the laws regarding property owners rights. That was never the question, and I was never disputing that fact. My problem was that this supposed policy was not posted anywhere, either online nor on site prior to, or immediately after, my incident. And your “employees” obviously don’t know it. It is your right to restrict possession of firearms, and it is my right to decide not to do business with you because of that decision. If that is your policy, I will do my best to inform the public that self-defense is not permitted on the fairgrounds and I will not attend the fair. It is that simple.
I would like a copy of this policy when it is completed.

Now, for my additional comments to your response:
First, that orange shirt did, in fact, suggest that I break the law. He did not ask me if I had a LTCF, nor did he suggest that I try to get one (I have had one for more than 10 years). I also never told him that I had one because it was not relevant to the conversation. You can pretend to put words in his mouth, but unless you were actually standing there, you do not know what was said and in what context. He also did not say that the fair had a policy of allowing concealed weapons, he simply said they weren’t allowed, then he told me to consider carrying concealed.
Second, judging by your response, you are not a pro-gun person, you are merely a hunter. You are probably a member of the NRA. The same organization with a history of selling out the second amendment. You think that the “Right to Bear Arms” means that you can have them at home and in the woods, but nothing more. That is not the meaning. The Second Amendment was added to give the People the ability to restore liberty when the government gets too powerful. Here’s a quote for you: “Let your gun be your constant companion on your walks” – Thomas Jefferson. He wasn’t talking about walks in the woods.
Third, no, I do not understand the public sentiment and paranoia that surrounds the open carry of firearms. A firearm is a tool, nothing more. I have never seen, nor heard of, a pistol jumping off a table and going on a shooting spree. But I have heard several stories of murderers grabbing a hammer or a baseball bat and going on a killing spree. Will you be prohibiting hammers and baseball bats from the fair as well? How about forks and spoons? They’ve been used to murder before as well.
Fourth, 911 and Columbine have absolutely nothing to do with the open carry of firearms. In fact, if planes weren’t government mandated gun-free zones, there would have been armed citizens on the planes able to deter to terrorists. So, by increasing the amount of prohibited items on the fairgrounds, you are in fact making it so much easier for a murderer to kill large quantities of innocent victims because the murderer will know that they are easy prey. And if you think your 2 dozen on and off duty “officers” are adequate to protect your thousands of people, that’s what they thought at Virginia Tech too. How many people died there before he was finally taken down? How many deaths are acceptable to you?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my initial question. Please provide me with a copy of your new rules when they are available.
In the meantime, I will spread the word that the fair is a gun-free zone and neither I, nor my immediate family, will be attending the fair again.
Mark Roote

Well, at least I finally got an answer, now what do I do about it?

Can we get them to PA?

We’ve seen the video about the armed civil disobedience to the mayor in Ruidoso, NM

Verbal shots fired in Ruidoso gunfight: krqe.com

David and Mike both showed me that, but what can we do to get some outside help in Williamsport? I posted about this a few days ago and I had intended to go down for the “next” meeting, but it was actually last night and I had bought the concert tickets a while ago (I wish I had skipped the concert), but here are the current videos in case you haven’t heard about it yet:
Round 1, August 16, 2011

Round 2, September 1, 2011

Round 3, September 15, 2011
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These are blatant 1st and 2nd Amendment violations occurring in Williamsport, serious help is needed here. What can we do about it?

If you have ideas, you can contact me and I will do my best to pass them on to the folks taking the lead on this, but I’m a bit busy these days so your best bet is contacting “pistolpackintim” on YouTube. I will continue following this story and I will try to attend future occurrences, but I can’t make promises right now.

Any help available?

Update I wanted to listen to it before I posted it, but Tim was on the radio about this too:

My submission to the president’s new snitch site

Actually, this is my second submission, my first one was a direct copy of Billy Beck’s submission (thanks CA).
So, my submission is as follows:

If you read through the Journalists guide to ‘Project Gunwalker’ (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker), and you have to read all of the links on all 6 of the pages in the guide to see all of the facts, there are allegations that Obama’s senior staff were aware of, and even approved of, this operation to ‘walk’ guns into the hands of violent criminals. Well, if the senior White House staff was aware, then Obama had to be aware, right? If Obama was aware, not only will it affect his re-election, but it could get him impeached.

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I seriously doubt I’ll get a response, and even if I do it won’t be an “offical” response (can’t lock him down on a statement, ya know?) But hey, can’t hurt to try.

PS, David & Mike, sorry I had to submit you to that site, but I wanted to make sure they had the opportunity to read the facts you have already presented before they write their denial.

City of Williamsport trampling the 1st Amendment

The City of Williamsport, PA is trampling the 1st Amendment because they don’t want to hear, on record, that they are in violation of the state’s firearms laws.

It’s OK, if I’m available, I’ll go with them when they go back.
I’m also going to look into what I can do about having a picnic in one of their parks, with some friends (or by myself if need be).
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Update
Just noticed this one, which is a followup to the other one… watch the video, he’ll explain what happened